Hacker News

an hour ago by eric4smith

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs.

The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work.

Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work?

The workplace necessarily is going to bring together people that do not agree on personal matters - but who best align on matters relating to... work.

Color me naive, but shouldn’t what happens in the office be about the office???

Shouldn’t we be advocating on non office things outside of the office??

an hour ago by tshaddox

> The point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work.

What? I can’t be the only one who works directly in order to fulfill my needs (like literally my most basic needs, think food and shelter).

an hour ago by jdgoesmarching

I was about to say, this is the most chilling HN sentence I’ve ever read. The totality of our existence from 8-5 is not owed to someone who profits from our labor and skills because they got lucky with some seed money or an inheritance a decade ago.

That’s just the divine right of kings with extra steps.

40 minutes ago by steverb

Your labor and skills are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the owner for money.

They may tolerate (and even enjoy) your personal quirks and causes, but they are paying you to get things done that they don't have the time or skill to do themselves.

[Edit: Accidentally left ou a letter]

31 minutes ago by BurningFrog

This is the kind of insanely exaggerated catastrophizing I never want to debate in the workplace.

I have work to do!

44 minutes ago by eric4smith

Wow. Most businesses are started with neither. But with the sweat off the back of the founders.

When will we acknowledge that one of the most noble pursuits in human history is to provide paid employment for your fellow man??

an hour ago by devoutsalsa

I think the parent comment is saying work is all ultimately all about making money. That’s in sync with what you’re saying. I think.

11 minutes ago by mc32

You’re both right. As a member of a company one is to further the mission of the company but it’s based on an agreement that in exchange for that, you and the company come to an agreement on compensation.

an hour ago by moomin

It’s well worth reading up on the details of the Basecamp disaster. At every point in the process, it was about work. How people behaved at work, how clients were treated, how people reacted to feedback, how information was communicated. It may have been “politics” but it was in no way separable from Basecamp‘s core business.

21 minutes ago by ghufran_syed

It’s too early yet to see whether the whole episode at basecamp was net positive or negative for the company.

an hour ago by nailer

From having read about the details: someone took a list making fun of mainly European (‘white’ in American) names and posted an image saying mocking people leads to genocide.

Yes this is easily separable from making productivity tools.

37 minutes ago by nefitty

Although my immediate reaction to the Pyramid of Hate [1] was a similar jump to, “is this saying jokes will lead to genocide?!”, ultimately I don’t think that was the intent. People seemed to have interpreted it in different ways, specifically “You’re telling me I support genocide if I think someone’s name is funny?”

I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression. I think it’s a simplification to say that they lead to genocide, because those sorts of results are dependent on many other factors (ie economic problems, political instability, etc). When combined, these factors result in greater oppression.

More apropos to the conversation regarding workplaces, I would consider them evolving into institutions where certain cultural norms are upheld. The more institutions within which a certain cultural norm is respected by individuals, the more other people/institutions in power have leeway to move in certain directions.

[1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/pyramid-of...

an hour ago by duped

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business.

Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society.

The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect the most change.

Just in recent history, the Civil Rights movement was built by people disrupting workplaces through boycotts and sit-ins. As we move forward in society it goes to reason that future movements should follow that example.

43 minutes ago by chairmanwow1

I worked at place like this at Lyft and to be honest it made me pretty uncomfortable. I was aligned with most people about most of the causes circulated freely, but not all. And on the items I wasn't fully onboard with the party line, I felt there was a huge risk to my job if I ever were to voice that.

I won't ever work in an environment like that again. Once I cross the threshold with my coworkers to be friends I feel like there's a significant difference in what we are comfortable talking about with each other and certainly I expect to debate social causes with them at that point. Otherwise, I find it incredibly naive to expect consensus on any ideas, regardless of how fundamental they seem.

an hour ago by ixacto

Advocating for what things exactly?

It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms.

If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too…

To some people (I am not one of them at all, but I understand the argument) any abortion is literally murder, and it as a sincerely held belief as the recent movements like BLM and #metoo were.

So do you really want to hear about abortion/guns/illegals/debt/satanism/furries in the workplace? This is just setting up workplaces for problems or maybe we can just realize work is for work?

a minute ago by GeneralMayhem

This is a really disingenuous false equivalency.

First, you're implying that all opinions are equally valid. That is... I'll be polite and simply call it nonsense. "Gay people should have rights" and "gay people shouldn't have rights" are not opinions of equal value, and it's not "eating your cake and having it too" to say that the latter opinion is unwelcome.

Second, there's a very clear relationship between the "left" topics you mentioned and the workplace; not so for the "right" topics. You can make an argument that abortion/contraceptives are work-related because of employer-sponsored healthcare (I think it's clear that employees should keep their noses out of each other's private medical matters, but... okay), but the rest are totally ancillary. If you want a "no politics at work" rule, then you wouldn't have conversations about guns (unless it's to advocate that your employer allow guns at work), you wouldn't have conversations about immigration policy (unless it's to advocate that your employer stop sponsoring visas), and you wouldn't have conversations about furries (unless it's to advocate that your employer ban furry sex in the workplace... which I don't think is a problem that anyone has). You know what you would still have? Conversations about discrimination in the workplace. Conversations about whether your employer's political dollars are funding violence. Conversations about whether your recruitment policies are unconsciously biased.

22 minutes ago by tshaddox

> To some people (I am not one of them at all, but I understand the argument) any abortion is literally murder, and it as a sincerely held belief as the recent movements like BLM and #metoo were.

This as well as other parts of your comment seem to imply that you believe the sincerity or intensity with which one holds a particular belief is one of the most important factors in the merits of that belief. I personally do not think this is the case.

an hour ago by hluska

Isn’t ending workplace sexism/racism a net benefit to the workplace? How are divisive, hate driven policies related?

21 minutes ago by geodel

> You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business.

Calling this rabid politics as 'ethics' and 'morals' is a neat trick. It is like calling "freedom to not air one's views', 'freedom to get fired for non PC views', 'freedom to be deplatformed' as actual freedom.

8 minutes ago by gnud

Well.

You obviously have the freedom to not air your views.

You have at-will employment in a lot of the US, so employers can fire you for any reason (except for some exceptions), or without a reason . I don't think this is a good thing, but there you are. This is a freedom for the employer.

If you have a right to a platform (i.e to not be deplatformed), that obviously limits the freedom of the ones supplying the platform.

So all of those points are actually freedoms, just not for the one being fired or deplatformed (the first point, freedom to be quiet, is obviously a freedom for the one keeping quiet. Maybe you meant something else?).

an hour ago by buzzy_hacker

I feel there is room in the middle. While we should not leave ethics at the door, not every ethical issue is applicable to work (as I’m sure you would agree.)

So while it might be relevant to discuss “woke” issues like discrimination on group characteristics at work because that’s an issue that could manifest itself at work, I don’t think it’s relevant to call for a statement about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by Google, as is suggested in the article.

Open-minded to contrary opinions though.

7 minutes ago by dukeyukey

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs.

No? For me, it's to give me somewhere to earn money while practicing/improving my valuable skills. I couldn't give a monkeys about the dreams and aspirations of my millionaire CEO.

an hour ago by archsurface

I have no tolerance for politics at work. As far as woke at work goes, not too long ago someone in my office commented on slack "I don't approve of unnecessarily gendered emoji" - I can't even begin to imagine what sort of mind produces such thoughts. First world problems? No idea.

an hour ago by eh9

As a PoC, I’ve also fielded those comments from white co-workers and it honestly feels like a contemporary version of being blind to race.

an hour ago by throwaway1959

Can you expand on what do you mean as being blind to race? Do you want them to see your race, treat different races differently? Aren't we supposed to be a color-blind society? Maybe I am just not understanding what you mean.

30 minutes ago by meowtimemania

I think on an individual level we should be “blind” to race but when it comes to solving some of the big problems of society we have to recognize the role that racism plays in those problems and

26 minutes ago by crooked-v

"Blind to race" claims often go along with smugly ignoring systemic racism in society and acting like it's a solved problem because a black man was elected President.

an hour ago by nailer

To me it seemed less racist when we all had yellow hands. Then again I think poc is a silly term - non Europeans have completely different experiences and cultures from each other even within the US.

38 minutes ago by darkhorse22

It's surely a firable offense, but part of me is so tempted to give a dark-skin-tone thumbs up in Slack as a white guy.

an hour ago by lliamander

I'm not sure the idea of "no politics at work" is exactly the right mindset.

I like the idea that a narrow mission (corporate or otherwise) allows for coalition building, and that you can sometimes put your differences aside and build something great the world can benefit from (this was an idea pushed by the early defenders of open source and the OSI).

When you build these coalitions, it also somewhat forces you to humanize the people not from your political faction.

4 minutes ago by runarberg

But your workplace is full of politics. Are you not allowed to use GPL dependencies? Do you get bonuses paid in stock options? Is there a senior developer that takes no input from new hires as a general rule? Does your boss get paid a lot more then you? Are parents allowed flexible work hours? Are more and more positions being filled in low paying areas? Does your company sell software to the American Military? to ICE? Does it have manufacturing in the occupied Palestinian territories?

Leaving politics outside of the office is simply not possible.

an hour ago by undefined

[deleted]

an hour ago by stephc_int13

The reason why politics is traditionally frowned upon in the workplace is to avoid toxic peer pressure and the resulting uniformity.

It is illegal to discriminate against employees for their political opinions, religion, sexual orientation, race, ethnic background, etc. Allowing or even encouraging open political debates in the workplace jeopardizes it.

an hour ago by foota

This isn't true, political opinions aren't a protected class in the US.

an hour ago by MattGaiser

It seems to be in some places like California.

https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-reta...

an hour ago by stephc_int13

Wow.

7 minutes ago by shock-value

It literally isn’t. The phrase “protected class” has a specific legal definition in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_State...

28 minutes ago by throwaway3699

Legality is not the same as morality. Remember that slaves were not a protected class at one point. A coarse analogy, I admit, but it's true: we can change this to include politics if necessary.

an hour ago by j2kun

Seems more likely it's so that employers can prevent their employees from discussing their working conditions with each other and enforce _more_ uniformity by stifling demands for better treatment.

an hour ago by kokanator

This is significantly and historically more the case.

The previous comment confuses Bullying with Political discussion. Though it is true bullies can participate in political discussions a bully is typically a bully in all areas.

an hour ago by SeanBoocock

Political opinions are not protected in the same way, nor should they be, as the protected classes you cite (gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc).

an hour ago by stephc_int13

Oh, really? I am not from the US, so I am a bit ignorant about the laws there.

In France it is illegal to discriminate against an employee because of his political views.

It is not allowed to ask.

36 minutes ago by UnpossibleJim

Here's the best I could find... I was a little bewildered by this, TBH. I thought, as long as your political beliefs didn't cause a distraction at work to yourself or others, you were safe from being fired. Guess I was wrong. At least on a federal level. Different states have different rules:

https://sanfordheisler.com/can-you-be-fired-for-your-politic...

39 minutes ago by frankbreetz

What if they have extreme political views? Are you allowed to wear KKK robes to work?

23 minutes ago by strken

Lawful political beliefs, affiliations, and actions are a protected attribute in Australia[0]. I have no idea whether this forces you to hire e.g. actual Nazis, although they'd probably have some unlawful beliefs.

[0] https://www.humanrights.vic.gov.au/for-individuals/political...

an hour ago by undefined

[deleted]

an hour ago by weasel_words

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how skewed a poll taken by "a diversity consultancy" would conclude that: "... two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work."

41 minutes ago by meowtimemania

Honestly I haven’t really had any bad experiences discussing these issues in person, but when I read the dumpster fire known as Twitter it makes me not want to get involved

26 minutes ago by ed25519FUUU

You’ll never have any issues as long as you stay between the lines, that’s the point.

7 minutes ago by madrox

I'm not sure where we go from here, but not being able to escape anxiety-inducing situations in a workplace is the definition of a toxic work environment. I don't think the answer is a return to 20th century "no politics at work," but at the FAANG I worked at, politics was impossible to avoid. Even the desire to be apolitical is itself criticized at worst and not respected at best. Work doesn't afford the use of the "block user" button. I hope we figure out a better way that respects some people have a hard time immersing in it the way others do.

17 minutes ago by rogers18445

Politics is what it is precisely because it is vacuous - you signal allegiance and that is all. You as an individual cannot influence anything any more than discussing an incoming storm would influence its trajectory.

But unlike the storm we know that the results of what society produces are determined by the society. And people don't realize or care that they as an individual are not society and have no influence over it in any meaningful capacity.

Many of our problems may be alleviated if game theory was a mandatory class in highschool. But then democracy would perhaps be in peril as people realize voting is as useless to them as is discussing politics. Tragedy of the commons can be a depressing thing.

an hour ago by kokanator

> Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics—and failing

Really? Don't be surprised when you manipulate the political sphere outside your walls in ways never seen in the history of the world and that politic creeps inside and devours you from within.

34 minutes ago by crackercrews

> Coinbase and Basecamp, which each lost 60 employees after their bosses changed the rules, have apparently been inundated with applications from people wanting to work for politics-free firms.

Basecamp had 57 employees at the time of their announcement. Are they down to -3?

Daily digest email

Get a daily email with the the top stories from Hacker News. No spam, unsubscribe at any time.